[tbr]

Abundant spoilers ahead.

In Tay, the Stranger gets Catherine's journal, including a note that starts "I write quickly from my prison". How did this note get to Tay? The common explanation I hear is that Nelah was an insider who had gained Gehn's confidence, and she visited Kat occasionally to bring her food and water etc.

But this is very problematic, because if you play the game in the order where you go to Tay before powering the domes, there really was no possible way that Nelah could have gone to Prison Island. The only way is through the domes and through 233rd, but that way is not active.

Could Nelah possibly have gotten the note without Gehn's knowledge? (EDIT: Ie, not being an insider.) In that case, she would have needed to take a boat or something. Catherine writes that the Moiety rarely visits the four islands Gehn have claimed as his own, and getting to Prison Island is especially complicated because of the vast distances. Not to mention the fact that Catherines prison is surveyed with a security camera, and we know people are watching it at least occasionally.

But let's say she did somehow get there without Gehn knowing. But, then it have been a trivial matter for her to get Catherine out of there: simply bring a Tay book and crystal and let her link out, she could use it through the cage. Surely, if they can smuggle notes out, they could do this too. The stranger could have done this too. On the other hand, this wouldn't have helped getting rid of Gehn, which was the most pressing matter.

One possible explanation for all of this, I guess, is that it all happens while we're passed out on Tay. Who knows, that might have been days. But if someone had gone up on the upper level of the dome and powered everything up, we should have seen traces in the position of doorways, bridges, levers etc.

[AaronAKAAtrus]

Nelah wrote it for us to be encouraged!
...
I got nuthin'.

[Kaelri]

You may be overthinking this. We know that Gehn had a number of servants, and that some of them were allowed to visit 233 & Prison Island. (Recall that when you first visit Catherine, she doesn't recognize you at first, and addresses you as if you were a guard, speaking in Rivenese.) It was not necessary for Nelah to visit the island herself; it would be considerably easier for the Moiety to bribe one of Gehn's lackeys to smuggle documents in and out.

[tbr]

 Kaelri, on Jan 9 2011, 03:05 PM, said:

You may be overthinking this. We know that Gehn had a number of servants, and that some of them were allowed to visit 233 & Prison Island. (Recall that when you first visit Catherine, she doesn't recognize you at first, and addresses you as if you were a guard, speaking in Rivenese.) It was not necessary for Nelah to visit the island herself; it would be considerably easier for the Moiety to bribe one of Gehn's lackeys to smuggle documents in and out.

The note is still written after the Stranger came to Riven. So someone MUST have used the domes during that time, yet that is impossible if you play the game in this order.

We know that Gehn has confiscated one book-window from the rebels, so that explains how he was able to retrieve his gun and pipe while we were on Riven. Presumably he keeps the book-window very well hidden some place where we can't find it. (EDIT: this might also explain the seemingly mysterious fact that the domes weren't powered in the first place - the portable window is much more convenient, so he has no need for the domes at the moment) But it's impossible that this same window was used by Nelah or any of Gehn's men, because if Gehn used it on any of the four "main" islands while we were there, it cannot also have been used on Prison Island without the domes being used at some point in between. You would need to use the domes to be able to move the book-window to Prison Island. Quite a conundrum!

Oh and the note specifically says that Catherine has talked to Nelah in person: "After questioning her, I’ve concluded that [the D'ni book] was written by Atrus for a very specific purpose." So she really must be an insider.

[AaronAKAAtrus]

thsi doesnt explain the questioning and is very unlikely:
Nelah in throne room. Catherine places note near camera. Nelah copies note.

[aander91]

 AaronAKAAtrus, on Jan 9 2011, 03:22 PM, said:

thsi doesnt explain the questioning and is very unlikely:
Nelah in throne room. Catherine places note near camera. Nelah copies note.

Not bad.

[Kaelri]

 tbr, on Jan 9 2011, 10:31 AM, said:

Oh and the note specifically says that Catherine has talked to Nelah in person: "After questioning her, I’ve concluded that [the D'ni book] was written by Atrus for a very specific purpose." So she really must be an insider.

You're right, I forgot about that. (It's still possible that she and Nelah merely exchanged notes, but I concede that the word "questioning" implies a face-to-face meeting.)

Regarding the Firemarble domes: There are only two ways to determine if the domes are powered: go inside one and observe the linking book pedestal, or visit the top floor of the golden dome on Temple Island. Both of these require you to have visited the upper section of Book Assembly Island. Chronologically, the only event that Catherine's note depends on is the theft of the prison book, which is literally the first thing that happened after your arrival. And we can assume that a significant amount of time passed before you made it to BA. It is possible, therefore, that the domes were actually powered on at the time you linked into Riven, and only deactivated sometime before you arrived at Gehn's lab. (Indeed, this would be a rational security measure for Gehn to take once he realized there was an intruder.) This would give Nelah ample time to visit Prison Island via the firemarble domes.

As for why Nelah didn't free Catherine herself, I can think of a few possibilities:
- Nelah, as you suggested, has infiltrated Gehn's regime. Even if she could disguise herself, liberating Catherine would cast suspicion on her, and limit or nullify her usefulness as a spy. (This is the weakest reason, of course; the Moiety would surely pay any price, even a valuable operative, to retrieve an ascendant deity.)
- As far as we know, there is only one linking book to Tay: in the caves behind the gallows. Since the Moiety had limited access to viable books, this may even be Tay's descriptive book. If this is true, then the book could not be safely destroyed; it would have to be returned to a secure location after the event. Catherine may have decided not to risk exposing the book or its hiding place by having it transported to Prison Island, especially if it required going through Age 233. If Gehn had been watching the surveillance camera at the moment when Nelah arrived, he would have had a good chance of trapping her in 233 on the way back.
- Finally, even if Nelah had a disposable linking book to Tay, and she and Catherine vanished without a trace, the camera would have recorded Catherine's link, which would reveal the existence of Tay. And when Gehn became aware of another link between Riven and a stable Age, he would have torn Riven apart to get his hands on it.

All in all, even if it were possible to free Catherine via linking book, the Moiety had strong incentive to hold off until the evacuation of Riven and the entrapment of Gehn were imminent. This was especially true after the arrival of the Stranger, whose presence indicated that Atrus was implementing his own plan, with which any rescue attempt might have conflicted.

[tbr]

 Kaelri, on Jan 10 2011, 05:02 PM, said:

Regarding the Firemarble domes: There are only two ways to determine if the domes are powered: go inside one and observe the linking book pedestal, or visit the top floor of the golden dome on Temple Island. Both of these require you to have visited the upper section of Book Assembly Island. Chronologically, the only event that Catherine's note depends on is the theft of the prison book, which is literally the first thing that happened after your arrival. And we can assume that a significant amount of time passed before you made it to BA. It is possible, therefore, that the domes were actually powered on at the time you linked into Riven, and only deactivated sometime before you arrived at Gehn's lab. (Indeed, this would be a rational security measure for Gehn to take once he realized there was an intruder.) This would give Nelah ample time to visit Prison Island via the firemarble domes.

Hey, that's true. This is indeed a possibility... well, almost! Because there is one more way to tell whether the domes are powered - from inside the great dome, we can hear a heavy, pounding sound when the power is on. And we only hear this after we turned it on ourselves.

Actually, just imagine how cool it would have been if they had just changed the programming of this one variable - so that the domes are powered originally, but are turned off at some point during the game, in time before we're able to get the code from Gehn's journal. Maybe change some of the states of bridges and gates etc in the surrounding area too, just to show that someone went through.

 Kaelri, on Jan 10 2011, 05:02 PM, said:

As for why Nelah didn't free Catherine herself, I can think of a few possibilities:
- Nelah, as you suggested, has infiltrated Gehn's regime. Even if she could disguise herself, liberating Catherine would cast suspicion on her, and limit or nullify her usefulness as a spy. (This is the weakest reason, of course; the Moiety would surely pay any price, even a valuable operative, to retrieve an ascendant deity.)
- As far as we know, there is only one linking book to Tay: in the caves behind the gallows. Since the Moiety had limited access to viable books, this may even be Tay's descriptive book. If this is true, then the book could not be safely destroyed; it would have to be returned to a secure location after the event. Catherine may have decided not to risk exposing the book or its hiding place by having it transported to Prison Island, especially if it required going through Age 233. If Gehn had been watching the surveillance camera at the moment when Nelah arrived, he would have had a good chance of trapping her in 233 on the way back.
- Finally, even if Nelah had a disposable linking book to Tay, and she and Catherine vanished without a trace, the camera would have recorded Catherine's link, which would reveal the existence of Tay. And when Gehn became aware of another link between Riven and a stable Age, he would have torn Riven apart to get his hands on it.

All in all, even if it were possible to free Catherine via linking book, the Moiety had strong incentive to hold off until the evacuation of Riven and the entrapment of Gehn were imminent. This was especially true after the arrival of the Stranger, whose presence indicated that Atrus was implementing his own plan, with which any rescue attempt might have conflicted.

This is all true, it would have been a very big risk to try to rescue Kat this way. The last paragraph that you wrote brings up another interesting question: why are the rebels so hostile towards the stranger? Sure, when some person they've never seen suddenly links in to their secret hideout they do have reason to panic, but why does Nelah appear to be so secretive when she meets us? She should be able to explain to the others that we're only there to help.

[Gehn, lord of ages]

 tbr, on Jan 10 2011, 10:42 AM, said:

This is all true, it would have been a very big risk to try to rescue Kat this way. The last paragraph that you wrote brings up another interesting question: why are the rebels so hostile towards the stranger? Sure, when some person they've never seen suddenly links in to their secret hideout they do have reason to panic, but why does Nelah appear to be so secretive when she meets us? She should be able to explain to the others that we're only there to help.

Rebels who depend on secrecy against a charismatic and seemingly all controlling dictator (who is their main exposure to the outside world) will probably be quite secretive to someone that they don't know, and Katran doesn't even know, and can only assume that Atrus sent him/her (with no idea of how close or how trustable the Stranger was - and could even perhaps suspect the Stranger came through a different way).

[Topher Bear]

Good question. You can also tell a powered dome by its golden glow. I don't have am answer to the Nerat dilemma but related am leading question is how does Gehn power down domes after he links to 233? A big effort by his lackies to power up and down each time they use them. But guessing they don't as otherwise they would trigger the cage.

Hmm

[Gehn, lord of ages]

 Topher Bear, on 19 January 2011 - 06:14 AM, said:

Good question. You can also tell a powered dome by its golden glow. I don't have am answer to the Nerat dilemma but related am leading question is how does Gehn power down domes after he links to 233? A big effort by his lackies to power up and down each time they use them. But guessing they don't as otherwise they would trigger the cage.

Hmm

I don't recall all that well, but is powering down the domes all that hard? Wouldn't just hitting a lever (either in the steam room of the big dome, or up near the firemarble puzzle) power it down? Given that Gehn and his minions don't need to look for the clues at each step of the way, and probably are somewhat coordinated, powering them up would also be relatively fast. As long as you aren't near the gold dome in Temple Island, or actually inside one of the smaller domes, there's not really any way to notice the main power turning on and off, and without being at whichever small dome they wish to use, there's no way to tell that they are linking through that dome (and since no doubt they pay a bit of attention to where you are, at least by being very alert of their own surroundings and moving if they hear or see you coming, it wouldn't be easy to accidentally be around them). After a certain time, it becomes harder and harder for them to plausibly move around without you noticing, but there's generally a lot of open time sometime before you go to Tay.

[tbr]

There wouldn't really be any reason to power down the domes, would there? My assumption is that eventually, the power from a set of power marbles would wear out, and the books wouldn't have enough power to work anymore. How long is hard to say - a day maybe. Though, Catherine writes:

Quote

All is ready. Now all we can do is wait for word from the Moietior-Esk, who are on the lookout for Gehn to power and use the domes. When he does that, we will have access to one of Gehn’s domes just long enough [to link to Tay].

EDIT: Topher Bear, what "golden glow" are you talking about?

[Gehn, lord of ages]

 tbr, on 20 January 2011 - 12:37 PM, said:

There wouldn't really be any reason to power down the domes, would there? My assumption is that eventually, the power from a set of power marbles would wear out, and the books wouldn't have enough power to work anymore. How long is hard to say - a day maybe.

Probably. However, powering down the domes (or just letting them shut off quickly) each time would provide another layer of security (especially for the dome in Jungle Island and others that are further out - if the domes are powered down, then along with everything else, an interloper must go through Temple Island to link with them, even if they know everything about the domes). With Gehn's paranoia, it sounds like the domes would be off most of the time (also, why care about the domes being on when you don't need them? It's just wasting energy, probably).

[Kaelri]

I guess that's the solution to the original conundrum, tbr. The domes must have been switched on sometime after you leave Temple Island, then powered off before you arrive on Book Assembly - perhaps as a consequence of your triggering the sentry alarms on Jungle.

Unless, of course, this "golden glow" exists around the firemarble domes. I honestly don't recall that either.

[Capella]

Topher, by "golden glow", do you mean the fact that the powered domes are usually spinning (with the dark metal disc over them with the color symbols), but when they're open and being used, the golden internal part where you input the code is up and visible? I suppose looking for spinning metal cover versus stalled golden one would be a cue as to whether or not anyone had used the dome recently. That then brings up the questions of "how does the spinning metal part cover it up again?" and "what happens if you link into that point and the spinning metal thing is covering you and spinning?"...

[Gehn, lord of ages]

 Capella, on 20 January 2011 - 05:59 PM, said:

Topher, by "golden glow", do you mean the fact that the powered domes are usually spinning (with the dark metal disc over them with the color symbols), but when they're open and being used, the golden internal part where you input the code is up and visible? I suppose looking for spinning metal cover versus stalled golden one would be a cue as to whether or not anyone had used the dome recently. That then brings up the questions of "how does the spinning metal part cover it up again?" and "what happens if you link into that point and the spinning metal thing is covering you and spinning?"...

The way I understood it, the cover thing worked like this:

Normal state: Spinning, dark hemisphere of the dome.
Once you use the scope to unlock the dome (or rather, to stop the spin), it flips over, and the underbelly of the dome, with its golden shine (perhaps only because it's exposed to the elements less?) becomes the top. However, this portion covers up the book. Hence you have to use the code to unlock this, swinging the dome over again (so it is now the spinning dark side, but you are inside it, alone with the book). When you link into one that is spinning, you just have to do whatever you do (pull a lever?) to open it up, flipping it up again to the golden side. I'm not sure what happens if you link to one that is golden side up.

[Free Bird]

The stupid thing is that, with two people (Uru!), one could easily get inside the domes without actually solving the puzzle.

[Kaelri]

 Free Bird, on 21 January 2011 - 04:02 AM, said:

The stupid thing is that, with two people (Uru!), one could easily get inside the domes without actually solving the puzzle.

For all we know, Gehn may have added mechanisms to prevent what you're imagining. Pressure pads, or perhaps a primitive light trap.

[Topher Bear]

I'm afraid I can't post images but if you look at the pictures of the spinning domes, when they are powered there is an orangey glow around the joins and the eye symbols.

The only way to turn off the power (and on) is at the top of the golden dome. I didn't see a supply of fire marbles only a handful. How would gehn got any more than he had if he had no access to D'ni. So I don't think they would have run down quick. After all, we never had to re power up.

[Gehn, lord of ages]

 Kaelri, on 21 January 2011 - 07:50 AM, said:

 Free Bird, on 21 January 2011 - 04:02 AM, said:

The stupid thing is that, with two people (Uru!), one could easily get inside the domes without actually solving the puzzle.

For all we know, Gehn may have added mechanisms to prevent what you're imagining. Pressure pads, or perhaps a primitive light trap.

Yeah, the domes could refuse to flip down again if there was some weight/light/other sense that someone was standing within it.

 Topher Bear, on 21 January 2011 - 09:35 AM, said:

I'm afraid I can't post images but if you look at the pictures of the spinning domes, when they are powered there is an orangey glow around the joins and the eye symbols.

The only way to turn off the power (and on) is at the top of the golden dome. I didn't see a supply of fire marbles only a handful. How would gehn got any more than he had if he had no access to D'ni. So I don't think they would have run down quick. After all, we never had to re power up.

Power marbles might be rechargeable, more like chargeable batteries (what am I to do without Mystlore up?). They might also just be more of generators/energy changers. Basically blast them with the steam from the big dome, or press them with the pressure generated from it, and then they produce a simpler to transfer kind of energy (perhaps electrical) to send to the domes (and the only places where either the incoming energy will be thrown at them, or the only places there are receptors for the energy they produce are the points you place them on in the puzzle, to make it more secure/artistic).

[Mystress]

Simple. The domes *were* active when you showed up, but you were too busy exploring to notice them much and didn't toy around with them until Gehn realized where you were and locked the domes down. So yes, Gehn is on the Islands with you, and you're missing each other by about *that* much. He tells a lackey, most likely a recovering Cho (or possibly another, but I like Cho, so there ), to systematically begin to lock all the domes down, but doing so will take time. He skips the one on Prison Island because nobody's likely to get there except by going through his books, or alternatively, the lackey forgets Prison Isle's dome.

Now here's where Nelah comes in. Remember that Moiety rebel that shot Cho at the beginning of the game? He took the book to Nelah in Tay, and when she got the book she knew what this item meant - someone was out to rescue Catherine, and she needed to tell her. So, she quickly disguises herself as one of Gehn's lackeys and manages to sneak by Gehn's defense just long enough to get in, tell Catherine what's going on, and get the diary from her. Catherine hastily writes a note and sticks it into the book, then tells Nelah to find her rescuer and give it to them. Nelah makes it back by some stroke of luck and takes it back to Tay. There, she waits until the time is right, knowing that the guards near the book back to Riven will drug and capture any intruders, and knowing you will likely be curious enough to try getting to Tay. Her hunch turns out to be correct - you get captured, and when Nelah hears the rumors of a strangely-dressed person that was caught outside the Rebel Hive, she sets out to investigate, finds you, and gives you the book.

So through a combination of luck, possible ineptitude on the part of Gehn's lackeys, and Rebel intuitiveness, Nelah CAN get you the book with Catherine's note in such a short period of time. She just needs to be very careful and very quick is all.

[tbr]

 Gehn, lord of ages, on 20 January 2011 - 01:53 PM, said:

With Gehn's paranoia, it sounds like the domes would be off most of the time (also, why care about the domes being on when you don't need them? It's just wasting energy, probably).

This "wasting energy" certainly depends on how scarce the power marbles were. I'll get to that in a bit.

 Gehn, lord of ages, on 20 January 2011 - 06:36 PM, said:

Normal state: Spinning, dark hemisphere of the dome.
Once you use the scope to unlock the dome (or rather, to stop the spin), it flips over, and the underbelly of the dome, with its golden shine (perhaps only because it's exposed to the elements less?) becomes the top. However, this portion covers up the book. Hence you have to use the code to unlock this, swinging the dome over again (so it is now the spinning dark side, but you are inside it, alone with the book). When you link into one that is spinning, you just have to do whatever you do (pull a lever?) to open it up, flipping it up again to the golden side. I'm not sure what happens if you link to one that is golden side up.

It's strange that Gehn chose to use the domes both as "places of protection" AND as link-in spots. It would make more sense if the link-in spot was outside of the dome itself. It appears to be impossible to be inside of the domes when they are "sunny side up", so linking there would probably not be a good idea either. On the other hand, we can see the domes through the linking panel before we go there, supposedly in realtime, and they're always dark/spinning. It's interesting that Cyan took the time to render both the golden and spinning domes from almost all view points, but they still automatically reset whenever we want to link to them. I guess the magic component that enables this is "gameplay AL".

 Topher Bear, on 21 January 2011 - 09:35 AM, said:

I'm afraid I can't post images but if you look at the pictures of the spinning domes, when they are powered there is an orangey glow around the joins and the eye symbols.

I think you're mistaken about the golden glow - if you look through the image files with Riveal or similar tool you can see that there are only two states rendered - open/still/golden, or closed/spinning/iron. Both of these states are possible whether the domes are powered or not.

 Gehn, lord of ages, on 21 January 2011 - 08:14 PM, said:

 Topher Bear, on 21 January 2011 - 09:35 AM, said:

The only way to turn off the power (and on) is at the top of the golden dome. I didn't see a supply of fire marbles only a handful. How would gehn got any more than he had if he had no access to D'ni. So I don't think they would have run down quick. After all, we never had to re power up.

Power marbles might be rechargeable, more like chargeable batteries (what am I to do without Mystlore up?). They might also just be more of generators/energy changers. Basically blast them with the steam from the big dome, or press them with the pressure generated from it, and then they produce a simpler to transfer kind of energy (perhaps electrical) to send to the domes (and the only places where either the incoming energy will be thrown at them, or the only places there are receptors for the energy they produce are the points you place them on in the puzzle, to make it more secure/artistic).

This is actually a really interesting question. We know that power marbles are a variant of fire marbles, but we don't really know what fire marbles are in the first place. Gehn, in his lab journal, writes about "adapting" and "modifying" fire marbles to get the power he needs. This might indicate that the fire marbles are somehow artifical, and could be produced in any quantity. It seems like the power marbles were more powerful and would "explode" rather than just shine, but how this energy is harvested and used by Gehn is difficult to say. Or maybe they work much like fire marbles but simply release some other energy than light.

One thing that is interesting to note too is that Gehn is not the only one who uses fire marbles - the Moiety do too. The animal stone room is full of them, and it even looks like there is one in the Tay cell (though it's hard to tell). It's unlikely that they would have stolen that from Gehn. Maybe the D'ni made sure that ages they linked to had all the raw materials needed to create fire marbles, and as Gehn copied their texts, Riven ended up with those materials too, and the Rivenese already used the technique before Gehn was around.

Is there any more info about exactly what fire marbles are that I'm not familiar with?

[Kaelri]

 Mystress, on 23 January 2011 - 01:32 AM, said:

Simple. The domes *were* active when you showed up, but you were too busy exploring to notice them much and didn't toy around with them until Gehn realized where you were and locked the domes down.

As tbr pointed out a few weeks ago¹, we have evidence that the domes were not activated at the time of your presence on Temple Island. They must have been switched on after you arrived on Jungle, but before you left for Book Assembly. (I realize this is a minor detail, and doesn't dramatically change the scenario, but such details can be critical to placing other pieces of the puzzle - for example, where Gehn and his lackeys actually are at any given time, which may require a particular sequence of events.)

Quote

So yes, Gehn is on the Islands with you, and you're missing each other by about *that* much. He tells a lackey... to systematically begin to lock all the domes down, but doing so will take time. He skips the one on Prison Island because nobody's likely to get there except by going through his books, or alternatively, the lackey forgets Prison Isle's dome.

I don't know what you mean by this. All of the firemarble domes were fitted with automatic coded locking devices a few years before your arrival², so no lackey would be needed to lock them manually. (And in any case, what difference would it make whether the Prison Island dome was unlocked or not? Anyone who links in from 233 can open it from the inside.) Moreover, the Moiety already knew the combinations to open the domes themselves³. Whether Gehn was aware of this or not, the only thing actually stopping Nelah from reaching Catherine was the domes' power state, which affects all domes simultaneously. We can therefore conclude (as we did, earlier in this thread) that Nelah visited Prison Island sometime while you were exploring Jungle. The primary danger here was being caught on her way through Age 233.

Quote

Now here's where Nelah comes in. Remember that Moiety rebel that shot Cho at the beginning of the game? He took the book to Nelah in Tay, and when she got the book she knew what this item meant - someone was out to rescue Catherine, and she needed to tell her. So, she quickly disguises herself as one of Gehn's lackeys and manages to sneak by Gehn's defense just long enough to get in, tell Catherine what's going on, and get the diary from her. Catherine hastily writes a note and sticks it into the book, then tells Nelah to find her rescuer and give it to them. Nelah makes it back by some stroke of luck and takes it back to Tay. There, she waits until the time is right, knowing that the guards near the book back to Riven will drug and capture any intruders, and knowing you will likely be curious enough to try getting to Tay. Her hunch turns out to be correct - you get captured, and when Nelah hears the rumors of a strangely-dressed person that was caught outside the Rebel Hive, she sets out to investigate, finds you, and gives you the book.

So through a combination of luck, possible ineptitude on the part of Gehn's lackeys, and Rebel intuitiveness, Nelah CAN get you the book with Catherine's note in such a short period of time. She just needs to be very careful and very quick is all.

There are a lot of assumptions here. Some of them are fair, but others, I'd dispute for the sake of precision. It is certainly safe to say that the Moiety who took the Prison Book brought it to Tay (or handed it off to other rebels who did the same). What happened from that point, however, is unclear, and we were beginning to discuss it a few posts ago.

I do think there's some credence to the idea that the rebel community was polarized about how to deal with you. This is evident from the ambivalence of the first Moiety you encounter. He doesn't trust you enough to even speak to you, much less reveal his identity, return your Prison Book, or invite you to a safe location. And yet, he frees you from the cage. I imagine that if Atrus himself had appeared, the decision would have been a lot easier. But being a Stranger™, they probably decided to wait a) to conduct further observation, and b) until they could receive instructions from Catherine.

Nelah certainly needed to act quickly, but whether her infiltration required such a "stroke of luck" is unclear. I'm partial to the idea that Nelah was working for Gehn as an insider, and could visit Prison Island without arousing suspicion, e.g. to deliver Catherine's meals. There are also any number of Gehn's followers who could probably be bribed or blackmailed. The Moiety have proven themselves to be a remarkably sophisticated (and underestimated) resistance group, and I don't see them acting brashly without cause.

Catherine shows no sign of doubt that you have been sent to Riven by Atrus; she has no reservations about sharing information or instructing Nelah to return the prison book. I have a hard time believing that any of the Moiety would disobey a goddess's commands. However, I wouldn't blame them for going no further than the letter of her orders. They didn't have to allow you freedom of movement through Tay, and if I were them, I'd just as soon lock you in a cell, send Nelah in to take care of business, and then kick you out as quickly as possible. (As for Nelah's hushed tones and sneaky demeanor: at the risk of a simplistic explanation... it was nighttime. )

After this point, I don't think there's any need for haste or "hunches." Once Nelah has returned with Catherine's instructions, there is no particular time limit on these events. The Moiety may have waited for you to arrive on Tay, or they may have begun formulating a plan to intercept you and deliver the books, which was cut short by your unexpected visit. (I wouldn't read much into the fact that you're abducted and drugged upon arrival; that was probably SOP for any unidentified intruder.)

At any rate, I'm not convinced that any part of this sequence requires Nelah to take matters into her own hands, or act without her peers' knowledge or approval. The Moiety are committed to serving Catherine, and once Catherine vouched for you as a friend of Atrus, any further dissension would be pretty well curtailed.

[Mystress]

 Kaelri, on 23 January 2011 - 10:26 AM, said:

 Mystress, on 23 January 2011 - 01:32 AM, said:

Simple. The domes *were* active when you showed up, but you were too busy exploring to notice them much and didn't toy around with them until Gehn realized where you were and locked the domes down.

As tbr pointed out a few weeks ago¹, we have evidence that the domes were not activated at the time of your presence on Temple Island. They must have been switched on after you arrived on Jungle, but before you left for Book Assembly. (I realize this is a minor detail, and doesn't dramatically change the scenario, but such details can be critical to placing other pieces of the puzzle - for example, where Gehn and his lackeys actually are at any given time, which may require a particular sequence of events.)

Okay, then we agree that this does not change my scenario by much. Where Gehn's lackeys and Gehn himself are DO depend on various events in my theory, but also depend upon various events in yours (collectively, not yours personally, Kaelri XD ).

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So yes, Gehn is on the Islands with you, and you're missing each other by about *that* much. He tells a lackey... to systematically begin to lock all the domes down, but doing so will take time. He skips the one on Prison Island because nobody's likely to get there except by going through his books, or alternatively, the lackey forgets Prison Isle's dome.

I don't know what you mean by this. All of the firemarble domes were fitted with automatic coded locking devices a few years before your arrival², so no lackey would be needed to lock them manually. (And in any case, what difference would it make whether the Prison Island dome was unlocked or not? Anyone who links in from 233 can open it from the inside.) Moreover, the Moiety already knew the combinations to open the domes themselves³. Whether Gehn was aware of this or not, the only thing actually stopping Nelah from reaching Catherine was the domes' power state, which affects all domes simultaneously. We can therefore conclude (as we did, earlier in this thread) that Nelah visited Prison Island sometime while you were exploring Jungle. The primary danger here was being caught on her way through Age 233.

I was no aware of the domes being self-locking; it has been a very long time since I fully played Riven and looked at the little details (my LP of it last year does not count; I was too busy detailing things and playing the game itself to notice very many new things).

The idea is that whether the Moiety knows the codes or not, they would not risk the chance of *trying* to rescue Catherine. Not in a large group (looks too suspicious), and not by themselves (what if one of Gehn's lackeys shows up and they are outnumbered and killed/taken captive?). Also, I'm not clear on that last statement - caught like how? Caught in the *middle* of linking to 233? Caught by Gehn or one of his acolytes while sneaking about in 233? Caught helping Catherine? Caught in the dome itself when the power went down?

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Now here's where Nelah comes in. Remember that Moiety rebel that shot Cho at the beginning of the game? He took the book to Nelah in Tay, and when she got the book she knew what this item meant - someone was out to rescue Catherine, and she needed to tell her. So, she quickly disguises herself as one of Gehn's lackeys and manages to sneak by Gehn's defense just long enough to get in, tell Catherine what's going on, and get the diary from her. Catherine hastily writes a note and sticks it into the book, then tells Nelah to find her rescuer and give it to them. Nelah makes it back by some stroke of luck and takes it back to Tay. There, she waits until the time is right, knowing that the guards near the book back to Riven will drug and capture any intruders, and knowing you will likely be curious enough to try getting to Tay. Her hunch turns out to be correct - you get captured, and when Nelah hears the rumors of a strangely-dressed person that was caught outside the Rebel Hive, she sets out to investigate, finds you, and gives you the book.

So through a combination of luck, possible ineptitude on the part of Gehn's lackeys, and Rebel intuitiveness, Nelah CAN get you the book with Catherine's note in such a short period of time. She just needs to be very careful and very quick is all.

There are a lot of assumptions here. Some of them are fair, but others, I'd dispute for the sake of precision. It is certainly safe to say that the Moiety who took the Prison Book brought it to Tay (or handed it off to other rebels who did the same). What happened from that point, however, is unclear, and we were beginning to discuss it a few posts ago.

I do think there's some credence to the idea that the rebel community was polarized about how to deal with you. This is evident from the ambivalence of the first Moiety you encounter. He doesn't trust you enough to even speak to you, much less reveal his identity, return your Prison Book, or invite you to a safe location. And yet, he frees you from the cage. I imagine that if Atrus himself had appeared, the decision would have been a lot easier. But being a Stranger™, they probably decided to wait a) to conduct further observation, and b) until they could receive instructions from Catherine.

I am making assumptions here because it IS unclear about what happened after the prison book got to Tay. They are assumptions, yes, but it's a jumping-off point at least.

It makes sense that the Moiety would not fully trust you. I wouldn't trust a random person wearing strange clothing either, especially not if they're carrying a potential key to the evil dictator's cage, even if it ISN'T a real key.

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Nelah certainly needed to act quickly, but whether her infiltration required such a "stroke of luck" is unclear. I'm partial to the idea that Nelah was working for Gehn as an insider, and could visit Prison Island without arousing suspicion, e.g. to deliver Catherine's meals. There are also any number of Gehn's followers who could probably be bribed or blackmailed. The Moiety have proven themselves to be a remarkably sophisticated (and underestimated) resistance group, and I don't see them acting brashly without cause.

I am not eliminating any possibility of any of these, I was simply focusing on one way it could have gone. Again, a jumping-off point to aid discussion, which is what we're doing now. And yes, any of those possibilities could also have occurred.

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Catherine shows no sign of doubt that you have been sent to Riven by Atrus; she has no reservations about sharing information or instructing Nelah to return the prison book. I have a hard time believing that any of the Moiety would disobey a goddess's commands. However, I wouldn't blame them for going no further than the letter of her orders. They didn't have to allow you freedom of movement through Tay, and if I were them, I'd just as soon lock you in a cell, send Nelah in to take care of business, and then kick you out as quickly as possible. (As for Nelah's hushed tones and sneaky demeanor: at the risk of a simplistic explanation... it was nighttime. )

After this point, I don't think there's any need for haste or "hunches." Once Nelah has returned with Catherine's instructions, there is no particular time limit on these events. The Moiety may have waited for you to arrive on Tay, or they may have begun formulating a plan to intercept you and deliver the books, which was cut short by your unexpected visit. (I wouldn't read much into the fact that you're abducted and drugged upon arrival; that was probably SOP for any unidentified intruder.)

Okay, something we both agree on. Catherine telling Nelah to tell the Moiety to give you the book back, then Nelah waiting until she can do so. Whether the Moiety planned to intercept you or not, Nelah would have had to wait to return the book. Though consider this - if you were one of the Moiety and your Goddess told you to return the book to this Stranger who is roaming the islands, wouldn't you consider that not only a matter of importance to her people and to Catherine, but spiritual importance? It could very well be that Nelah believed that she had been chosen to carry out the task of helping to save her Goddess from peril, and therefore that because Catherine had specifically chosen her that she was "doing it for God" in a way, sort of like a martyr or a saint. I wouldn't be surprised if after everyone was safely on Tay, Nelah *was* made into some spiritually important figure for helping Catherine save them all. This would make her feel as though it was her spiritual responsibility to carry out this task, even if it was all she did - especially if she's a Moiety insider who gained Gehn's trust. This is only one possibility, but a very realistic one, and could cause all sorts of complications to what happened.

In any case, we can agree that Nelah brought the message to the Moiety, and their Goddess' word is law to them and they therefore must return the book. So they send someone to keep an eye on you. Who doesn't matter, but they would need to track where you're going and what you're doing so they could return the book to you at some point. it's even possible that the guy in the prison cell was the one sent to track you, and he got caught. So when he sees you outside the cell, he knows the only possible logical course of action to take now is to show you where Tay is, because he can't tell you (You speak your language, he speaks Rivenese) and he doesn't have the book to give you it. Why would he trust you with this? Catherine told Nelah to tell him to trust you. So he goes through and hides the entrance to the Rebel book room, hoping to give you a vague enough clue to where he disappeared to (the Moiety have to be secretive to prevent interception by Gehn and his forces; this hiding of the book room would be second nature to him).

I also agree that being drugged upon arrival was a cautionary procedure - though you are on Catherine's side, they're still going to be distrustful of someone in weird clothing sneaking around the book back to Riven in the middle of the night (assuming it WAS night and that's not just what Tay looks like during the day), so you get drugged and taken captive. Those two are guards, and Catherine's savior or not you are GOING to be taken captive. It's what they were trained for.

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At any rate, I'm not convinced that any part of this sequence requires Nelah to take matters into her own hands, or act without her peers' knowledge or approval. The Moiety are committed to serving Catherine, and once Catherine vouched for you as a friend of Atrus, any further dissension would be pretty well curtailed.

Yes, but I'm a bit of an adventure-lover at heart, and stories of "the little rebel who could" kinda get to me.