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Esher's pronunciation

#1 User is offline   I'mNotCheating... 

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 09:09 AM

Was there ever a canon explanation for the way Esher pronounces "D'ni"?
I like to think he may be making a pun (perhaps about either its greatness or its fall) or may be mocking the player in some way.
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#2 User is offline   Capella 

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 10:21 AM

I heard it was a speech impediment due to snake venom, but I'm not sure if that's canon or fanon.
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#3 User is offline   Talashar 

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 06:28 PM

View PostCapella, on 08 September 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

I heard it was a speech impediment due to snake venom, but I'm not sure if that's canon or fanon.


That's Rawa's theory, but I don't think he was being entirely serious. ;)
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#4 User is offline   I'mNotCheating... 

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:14 AM

Heh, that'd be some very specifically acting venom...
Does anybody have other hypotheses/thoughts about why Esher could be speaking this way?
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#5 User is offline   Johnraka 

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 11:40 AM

View PostI, on 10 September 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

Heh, that'd be some very specifically acting venom...
Does anybody have other hypotheses/thoughts about why Esher could be speaking this way?


Regional Dialect maybe?

Just a thought...
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#6 User is offline   Gehn, lord of ages 

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Posted 10 September 2012 - 04:10 PM

It could be his accent. Everyone else who says D'ni has learned it, indirectly or directly, from a small set of D'ni elites (Aitrus and friends were near the top of the D'ni guild society, and even after the Fall Atrus probably worked most with the people who had the professional and leadership experience to become the new guildmasters and higher leadership. Esher on the other hand seems like a random commoner survivor - perhaps from a far flung branch of D'ni.). Also, D'ni wasn't even Ti'anna's first language and Gehn only was around native speakers for his childhood. Atrus and Catherine learned from them, and passed on their accent to their children (although Yeesha may have had more exposure to different accents - although certain regions of the city and occupations/classes may have statistically survived the Fall more, thus making their accent the predominant one in the new society. Plus, nobody is going to say Atrus is saying things wrong).
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#7 User is offline   I'mNotCheating... 

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 09:16 AM

The accent (dialect?) is an interesting idea, especially wondering if the different classes of D'ni society spoke in (to me, anyway) such wildly different ways. Were any details of Esher's upbringing ever revealed? I.e., was he a contemporary of Gehn, spending childhood in D'ni but the rest of his life outside it, or was he older and became an adult before the Fall? Or was he younger, and only heard about D'ni through his elders (themselves who may have had speech impediments)?
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#8 User is offline   Talashar 

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Posted 15 September 2012 - 06:05 PM

Before End of Ages came out there were previews that referred to Esher as an Archivist, which would put him in roughly the same social class as Gehn. Some possibilities:

1. We shouldn't expect the actors to pronounce the D'ni language exactly right. (This is my preference).

2. Speech impediment, whether from snakebite or not. But why would he insert a random sound into the middle of a word? Is it a neurological thing, and the lexeme d'nee got mixed up with something else?

3. The Major Guilds trained their members to use guild-specific pronunciations.

4. D'khnee is an affectation. Maybe it's a legitimate older pronunciation, or maybe there was a typo in an ancient manuscript, but Esher started using it either way.

5. Esher actually hails from a slightly different instance of Earth where a slightly different language is spoken.
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#9 User is offline   Gehn, lord of ages 

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 03:34 PM

View PostI, on 15 September 2012 - 09:16 AM, said:

The accent (dialect?) is an interesting idea, especially wondering if the different classes of D'ni society spoke in (to me, anyway) such wildly different ways. Were any details of Esher's upbringing ever revealed? I.e., was he a contemporary of Gehn, spending childhood in D'ni but the rest of his life outside it, or was he older and became an adult before the Fall? Or was he younger, and only heard about D'ni through his elders (themselves who may have had speech impediments)?

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I wish you could see Laki'ahn as I remember it!
Anticipation.
The calls of the beasts, bellowing out over the warm airs ... and conversations, as we waited for the fires to burn and the battles to begin.

I think Esher was older than Gehn (who was only 8 by the time D'ni fell - not the age when you'd be hanging out with your friends watching Laki'ahn gladiator fighting - also, he seems to have a pretty extensive knowledge of various D'ni customs and places despite seemingly being alone in his exile [at least he never mentions any other D'ni fleeing with him]).


View PostTalashar, on 15 September 2012 - 06:05 PM, said:

Before End of Ages came out there were previews that referred to Esher as an Archivist, which would put him in roughly the same social class as Gehn.

Very roughly. He could easily have been (and unless the D'ni hierarchy is pretty spread out compared to similar societies, it's statistically likely that he'd have been) a low ranking guild member. The D'ni would have to have a lot of people who would never advance far in the guild ranking. His family might also be on the poorer side of the spectrum.

Meanwhile [warning - very rough calculations, estimates, and usage of population figures I skimmed off of Wikipedia ahead] Gehn's grandfather Kahlis was a Grand Master of one of the Major Guilds (assuming a modest population estimate of 1 million D'ni*, that's the top 0.0042% of society). His father Aitrus was friends with the even more rich and influential Veovis and Lord Rakeri (top 0.0005% of society**) and rose to be a political leader and one of the most powerful people in D'ni.

So while they were both Guildsmen, Gehn was brought up around the richest and most powerful people in D'ni, in a family that was incredibly wealthy and powerful. Esher probably wasn't.

*Roughly the size of ancient Rome or modern San Jose, California - a smaller population than either Bahrain or Swaziland.
**For comparison, the U.S. Congress consists of approximately 0.0002% of the U.S. population. The Parliament of the United Kingdom consists of approximately 0.002% of the British population. Approximately 0.0001% of the U.S. population are billionaires, and approximately 1% are millionaires.
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#10 User is offline   Talashar 

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 06:38 PM

View PostGehn, lord of ages, on 16 September 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

So while they were both Guildsmen, Gehn was brought up around the richest and most powerful people in D'ni, in a family that was incredibly wealthy and powerful.


But from ages four to eight, Gehn was in the guild school. It's not clear how many groups of students there were, and how or if the groups correlated with the family's social status, but we do know that Aitrus and Veovis interacted in school before Aitrus rose to the elite.
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#11 User is offline   Gehn, lord of ages 

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Posted 16 September 2012 - 10:45 PM

View PostTalashar, on 16 September 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

View PostGehn, lord of ages, on 16 September 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

So while they were both Guildsmen, Gehn was brought up around the richest and most powerful people in D'ni, in a family that was incredibly wealthy and powerful.


But from ages four to eight, Gehn was in the guild school. It's not clear how many groups of students there were, and how or if the groups correlated with the family's social status, but we do know that Aitrus and Veovis interacted in school before Aitrus rose to the elite.

Being the son of a Grand Master is already elite. There's at most 5-10 people of Veovis' "rank" to hang out with, if he won't stoop down to Grand Master's kids (and at that time maybe his father was just a Grand Master too, although Kahlis could also have been one more step down... which is still the elite of the elite). More importantly, I think Esher was older than Gehn. Once the initial egalitarianism of schooling was over, perhaps Esher hung around more with people of his "class" of society (or maybe that even happened to a degree with in the school), which again reinforced the accents that he had been brought up with (assuming it's a more class/region based accent). Or perhaps being an archivist means a lot of linguistics studies from ancient times, or dealing with archives related to other Ages (and natives, who probably have an accent)



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#12 User is offline   Talashar 

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Posted 17 September 2012 - 05:55 AM

View PostGehn, lord of ages, on 16 September 2012 - 10:45 PM, said:

View PostTalashar, on 16 September 2012 - 06:38 PM, said:

View PostGehn, lord of ages, on 16 September 2012 - 03:34 PM, said:

So while they were both Guildsmen, Gehn was brought up around the richest and most powerful people in D'ni, in a family that was incredibly wealthy and powerful.


But from ages four to eight, Gehn was in the guild school. It's not clear how many groups of students there were, and how or if the groups correlated with the family's social status, but we do know that Aitrus and Veovis interacted in school before Aitrus rose to the elite.

Being the son of a Grand Master is already elite. There's at most 5-10 people of Veovis' "rank" to hang out with, if he won't stoop down to Grand Master's kids (and at that time maybe his father was just a Grand Master too, although Kahlis could also have been one more step down... which is still the elite of the elite).


Kahlis wasn't Grand Master yet. In Book I of the BoT, Iradun is Grand Master of the Surveyors and Aitrus wonders why Veovis is intent on having him as a friend rather than someone "more suited to his social role". In Book II Aitrus is still "surprised [...] to find himself in such high company". Veovis's family has an island and six Ages, but Kahlis initially only has one Age.

There's actually a contradiction between the Books of Ti'ana and D'ni that's relevant to the pace of Aitrus's social ascent: the Book of Ti'ana has Ko'ah being written twenty years before Anna's arrival, upon Kahlis's elevation to Grand Master, while the Book of D'ni has Ko'ah having been in Atrus's family for eight generations. :eyebrow:

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More importantly, I think Esher was older than Gehn. Once the initial egalitarianism of schooling was over, perhaps Esher hung around more with people of his "class" of society (or maybe that even happened to a degree with in the school), which again reinforced the accents that he had been brought up with (assuming it's a more class/region based accent). Or perhaps being an archivist means a lot of linguistics studies from ancient times, or dealing with archives related to other Ages (and natives, who probably have an accent)


Yes. It's also possible that Gehn's speech altered later in life (perhaps including hypercorrection) as he tried to sound more "authentically" D'ni. But for OOC reasons I think that, if Esher did speak differently, it was he who varied from "Standard Guild D'ni".
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